State of the Abyss

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

State of the Abyss

Post by JOGJeff on Mon May 31, 2010 6:18 pm

So. . .

I am sure some have wonder why has JOG been so silent and taken so long to respond since the announcement of the possible forming of the abyss council and new rules by leadership here at the Abyss, since the creation of these things anew was something we championed.

JOG's council has been since the announcement watching closely the developments and peoples response to them. We have discussed our opinions on the matter behind close doors as to what we wanted to do on our part. First and foremost let me state that JOG is still interested in helping out here at the abyss. Our delay in these matters was due to caution and patience rather than lack of interest.

Now with that said, we have found as a council that we do have some issues what was stated. Now this is not out of disrespect that we say this but because we want to really be a part of something that is worth our time and effort to help make special.

First the rules. . .
The abyss server rules were updated and for the most part we are in total agreement. However there are a ffew rule sin which we find will make it very difficult to deal with without bias, and will open the door to problems with in the server.

Abusive Gameplay Rules
No excessive shooting
No excessive high camping
No excessive perfect blocking
No excessive taunting
No player harassment


I have highlighted in red the two rules in which there are issues with on our part. And I will explain why. No excessive taunting. . . this is really where our problem lies in the rules. By allowing any taunting,it opens the door to retaliation. This can come in the form of taunting back, which always escalates. We feel it will esculate to teamkilling, mic taunting, admin taunting, stealing of kills, etc Basically everything the rules say don't do. And of course when someone does it, that person will get banned. Now the problem we have with this is, why would one allow something that would cause people to get angry, frustrated and cause them to retaliate in the first place. If one is that good to begin with they don't need to show off with taunting. So there is no need for it in the first place.

Now the second part to that is the next rule, no player harassment. HOw can one allow taunting at all, then say you can't harass people. Cause taunting is a form of harassment. We feel it would be impossible to effectively admin this, or rule in without bias if taunting is allowed.

Thats our issue with the rules. . .we see it as a block to a strong communal server.


Last edited by JOGJeff on Mon May 31, 2010 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

JOGJeff
Member
Member

Posts : 32
Stuff : 45
Reputation : -1
Join date : 2009-09-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by JOGJeff on Mon May 31, 2010 6:32 pm

sorry for the split reply but it wouldn't allow me to post any more on that last one. . .

anyways

Now for the council. . .

We feel upon reviewing what the council is to be all about and where and what their authority would be, that it won't work as stated. And heres why. . .

The members that would be seated at this council would be powerless in all actuality. They don't even have the same power to watch over the server as regular admins do. First as one can see, no one is really going to want to participate in something that gives them absolutely nothing to do but to just watch over admins gone bad. Secondly, if there are bad admins, and people are saying they are doing all these things, how will they even know which admins were on doing it to these people with out access to logs or even the recon itself. They would have to take the word of sinister and jman. Not saying you would lie, but there could be favortism in that reguard. It could be bias. Thirdly, we see where sinister and Jman are co leaders, which even though we argued against it for the safety of the abyss, we are fine with that. However it was stated that your guys seat on this council would not act as sin's or vvv's seat on the council. That allows sin and vvv to seat 2 more council members along side you guys. In essence that allows for a vote total of 3 vvv members and 3 sin members on a council. In the end, clans are going to vote with each other.It is going to happen. That gives a very heavy majority on all abyss matters if you were to go through with that.

NOw we totally understand that this is Jmans and now sinisters server, so there was already a bias that was going to go through, as with any server. However compound with what is stated above, it becomes pointless for a council and gets away from the pure council idea that we were hoping for.

WE aren't trying to slam you guys here but expressing our opinions as to why we feel this doesn't work as stated.

If this is the way you guys feel you still want to run it, than thats fine, its your right, however JOG participation in it, will probably be to keep our present status of a few admins of the server as we have had for some time, if that option is still on the table.

In the end its your guys call, however this is how JOG feels on the matter. We hope we can continue to work together on the matter.

JOGJeff
Member
Member

Posts : 32
Stuff : 45
Reputation : -1
Join date : 2009-09-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Sinister on Mon May 31, 2010 8:40 pm

Here is the base problem of a council; it is based off a whim.

You received a ban from an abusive admin, which is what the council idea stems from. The abusive admin was Devil Wing. He lost admin. It took some convincing from me (you're welcome) get that to happen, but it did. I think the fact we did this shows we have little favoritism, considering Devil was on good terms with both Jman and I at the time...

Secondly, you must have skipped the part where Jman said that vVv and SIN would only have 1 council member. At least I think he said that somewhere... Anyway, this is what you proposed...

jeff wrote:I think the council would be a place in which you make sure your admins are upholding the server, come up with ideas that are different and hold all others accountable for their actions on the server and site

No where do you mention giving them any sort of control over the site or server, and to be honest, that is what we wanted. The council concept that you proposed was, more or less, a policing and activist committee for site/server/cbox... which was destined to fail in the first place. It's rare anyone wants to be a part of anything unless they get something in return, in this case... control. We knew this from the start...

My opinion still stands, especially after your post today...

The council idea was formed with the, direct or indirect, intent to give control to other clans and players. I feel like it was a veiled attempt to open the cookie jar and let anyone and everyone who wanted to get their hand in and gain some pull here. I'm not obstinate enough to think that's the entire situation... of course maybe you (and others) did want to positively contribute and improve things around here, however... I think it's only natural to desire a bit of power, especially in a place that holds so many cards. Every man wants his own piece of land. Wink

With that said, there was never a legitimate reason to have a council in place in my opinion. Devil was stripped of admin rights when he was friends with both Jman and I. That right there I think clearly shows minimum favoritism and bias. Another issue was that people were sick of rule breakers. Well, there are several easy solutions to dealing with those types of incidents. 1 being report them, whether over the cbox, over the mic or on the forums. If you report a problem, we will deal with it accordingly. 2 being just leave the server. Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you play in the Abyss, so if you are fed up with the gameplay there... take advantage of common sense and press start up x up x.

The final issue was public desire to hold games and what not such as luke wars or to lock the server. We have always been open to ideas from the community. Mods have been added and removed due to requests from players. I myself made several petitions that were able to change the way things were around here. Remember the Mixed Battles? I approached Jman with that idea and got it approved. If any of you out there have an idea like that, feel free to share it... but to also support it and gain support from others.

In closing, a council of clan admins is fruitless... It would create more problems than solve. Why? You are giving individuals and groups more power over others. More of that means more problems. Saying otherwise is insensible. Your original proposition can already be accomplished with the way things presently are... give or take a few tweaks here and there.


Last edited by Sinister on Mon May 31, 2010 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

_____________________________________________

avatar
Sinister
Member
Member

Posts : 569
Stuff : 634
Reputation : 24
Join date : 2009-06-22
Age : 26
Location : United States

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Sinister on Mon May 31, 2010 8:53 pm

Just saw the post (I guess you edited).

The rules... well all I'm going to say is you can thank Jman for those. lol I am in agreement with you there.

_____________________________________________

avatar
Sinister
Member
Member

Posts : 569
Stuff : 634
Reputation : 24
Join date : 2009-06-22
Age : 26
Location : United States

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Devil_Wing on Mon May 31, 2010 9:40 pm

JOGJeff wrote:sorry for the split reply but it wouldn't allow me to post any more on that last one. . .

anyways

Now for the council. . .

We feel upon reviewing what the council is to be all about and where and what their authority would be, that it won't work as stated. And heres why. . .

The members that would be seated at this council would be powerless in all actuality. They don't even have the same power to watch over the server as regular admins do. First as one can see, no one is really going to want to participate in something that gives them absolutely nothing to do but to just watch over admins gone bad. Secondly, if there are bad admins, and people are saying they are doing all these things, how will they even know which admins were on doing it to these people with out access to logs or even the recon itself. They would have to take the word of sinister and jman. Not saying you would lie, but there could be favortism in that reguard. It could be bias. Thirdly, we see where sinister and Jman are co leaders, which even though we argued against it for the safety of the abyss, we are fine with that. However it was stated that your guys seat on this council would not act as sin's or vvv's seat on the council. That allows sin and vvv to seat 2 more council members along side you guys. In essence that allows for a vote total of 3 vvv members and 3 sin members on a council. In the end, clans are going to vote with each other.It is going to happen. That gives a very heavy majority on all abyss matters if you were to go through with that.

NOw we totally understand that this is Jmans and now sinisters server, so there was already a bias that was going to go through, as with any server. However compound with what is stated above, it becomes pointless for a council and gets away from the pure council idea that we were hoping for.

WE aren't trying to slam you guys here but expressing our opinions as to why we feel this doesn't work as stated.

If this is the way you guys feel you still want to run it, than thats fine, its your right, however JOG participation in it, will probably be to keep our present status of a few admins of the server as we have had for some time, if that option is still on the table.

In the end its your guys call, however this is how JOG feels on the matter. We hope we can continue to work together on the matter.

LISTEN TO JOG JEFF RETARDS!!!!! (Sinister/Mephiles)

_____________________________________________
Got It Memorized?
Best of all time

Devil_Wing
Server admin
Server admin

Posts : 672
Stuff : 1000000698
Reputation : -27
Join date : 2009-04-27
Age : 26
Location : The world that never was, Ivalice

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by JOGJeff on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:13 am

from Mephiles in decision decisions. .
No, me and Sinister don't count as council members sense we both have admin and that would give an advantage to our two clans.


this is why we thought that is what you meant about sin having 2 other council members and vvv having two council members. Perhaps we misinterpted the meaning behind it. If so our bad, but thats what we thought when reading it.

anyways, the way initally brought up which was in the end just an idea, was that the council who would be made up of one member from each clan would sit and help aid mephiles. As stated "I think the council would be a place in which you make sure your admins are upholding the server, come up with ideas that are different and hold all others accountable for their actions on the server and site." The concept behind it would be to give the abyss a shot of legitamacy at being a truelly neutral server with all power and rights reserved for mephiles to work under.

To be honest I did not mention admins to these players cause I felt that was a given. Kinda like when you have a council in general, those members usually have admin abilty. However the power was never meant to be anybodies except Mephiles. Being that the way it was brought up, he would have all final say on the council matters. THat and with every clan only having one representitve there could be no way to really have power over the site.

As for the removal of devil as admin, I was not aware that you had any say in that one. However I didn't know you two had worked things out since the falling out you two had a while back? Either way in that case, devil at that time, you were being an abusive admin and it seemed like the correct corse of action there.

In the end, go with that you guys feel is good for you. If doing a council is not something you really want to go for, then don't. Simple as that. Either way all these things were just ideas that were thrown out there to begin with. JOG is just stating its feel for what had transpire.

We will watch the site contiously to see if we can bring anything else to the table.
As for the rules there. . . definalty do suggest taking alook at it cause it could open up a whole bunch of problems for you guys.

JOGJeff
Member
Member

Posts : 32
Stuff : 45
Reputation : -1
Join date : 2009-09-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Huey Freeman on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:24 am

Yeah, Sinister doesn't really like my rules lol

The no "excessive" taunting isn't really excessively, it counts for any an all taunting, I just don't know why he put the word "excessive" in it lol

The "Player Harassment" refers to if you want to just push a person all around the map instead of killing him, if you want to torture a single teammate by messing him up everytime on purpose, etc.

The council idea, with admins, maybe I'll change my mind, maybe not, I don't know yet, but as of right now I have alot on my plate and I don't need a ton more, we'll see where it goes, maybe we'll give it a chance and see what happens with it, I don't know at the moment, until then either participate or don't, not exactly my place to tell you what and what not to like. It was my intention to give all council members admin in the first place, Sinister disagreed and gave valid points I agreed with as to why you all wouldn't very well need it anyways, I guess we'll talk it over again and see where it leads, maybe.

The council members from our clan, I don't know about Sinister and VVV but I couldn't care less if my members vote for something that people won't like, I'll deny it all the same as if any other clan voted for it and no one liked the idea, just because they're my clan members doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything, nor does it mean I'm going to protect them and watch over them when dealing with affairs with this particular server, but if it makes everyone else feel better then fine, we'll only do 1 member from VVV and 1 from SIN instead of 2 for each, poor boys will feel lonely with no teammates behind them lol

I think I got everything, ask me the question again if I missed anything or if i didn't make something clear enough for anyone to understand completely, and that doesn't mean if you THINK you understand it then its alright, if you don't COMPLETELY understand something then question me about it, I don't want any misunderstandings to come bite us all in the ass again.

Finally, Devil.....grow up and get over it.

There, I put parenthesis in the server rules post Sinister made so you all can understand it better.

_____________________________________________
Appearances rarely share the whole truth.
Weak humans are irresponsible and sneaky. They'd rather put the blame on others and let them suffer.
"We're Americans! We don't quit just because we're wrong! We just keep doing the wrong thing until it turns out right!"

avatar
Huey Freeman
Server Owner

Posts : 996
Stuff : 1000001260
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2009-04-19
Age : 15
Location : Woodcrest, Maryland

View user profile http://abyssserver.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Spider-Man on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:48 am

I didn't read all of this, but maybe this will help. Why don't we instead of having two council members for every clan with only them having say. Why don't we just have 1 ambassador from every clan. And when we discuss the problem in the "abyss" council, the ambassador will bring it to their separate clans and their clan's leaders/council as a whole can have a say. When that clan finally comes to an agreement, the ambassador will bring his/her clans thoughts/votes back to the topic, so on and so forth.

Of course this ambassador will have to be a well informed and well trusted person. But Just a thought.

About admin, give it to whoever you want, it's a separate thing as far as I'm concerned. If you think bout it, the council will have more control over anyone. If you don't like how an admin is treating players or is acting, then vote him out as an admin.

This goes for everything: cbox, rules, etc. If you don't like it, you can state your case in the council forums and if needed to vote the problem out. mmm...Yea just trying to take a step back and think about the big picture, but I think I'm in the right direction.

_____________________________________________

avatar
Spider-Man
Server admin
Server admin

Posts : 238
Stuff : 257
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2009-09-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Sinister on Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:00 am

Jman and I are going to talk about this for a few days and try to find a solution everyone can come to terms with...

Stay tuned

_____________________________________________

avatar
Sinister
Member
Member

Posts : 569
Stuff : 634
Reputation : 24
Join date : 2009-06-22
Age : 26
Location : United States

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by {GOR}Master~Tyrlan on Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:53 pm

{SIN}Mephiles The Dark wrote: but I couldn't care less if my members vote for something that people won't like

FINALLY someone says "couldn't" instead of "could" . Lol.


Anyways... regarding spidey's mention of clan leaders... I have my own suggestion... (I'm just throwing it out there haha)

The only way involving clan leaders of each clan would work is if a representing leader from each clan were to form a council, mainly to discuss things involving the community's activities, changes in general, and admin quality, in order to come to a common conclusion. To monitor admins though, they would need a minimum of some kind of limited access, as has been stated before.

The only possible way that the council members would have admin access further than monitoring purposes is if the chosen representatives are deemed trustworthy enough to handle it by the owners... but i don't know if that is necessary to have them with it at all.

(IF one or more of these council members have admin only)

(If a case occurs where a particular admin within the council is causing problems, the admin in question will not have a vote... but only be able to explain their actions and see what happens. Considering that the admin in question is a chosen clan leader... I doubt the supposedly abusing admin will have any unfair advantage in having admin over other admins considering that with what i have said they'd have no vote on their own judgment when it occurs, and I'm sure clan leaders will be mature enough to take fact over biased opinion of the person in question. After all... the clans involved are all well managed at this time as far as i know and that result has to come from somewhere...)

That being said, I personally have no problem with Mephiles and Sinister being able to be involved with this council in general regardless of whether this idea is partially or fully used or not used at all since the server IS under their ownership and they are both clan leaders in their own respect. The only block on that would be to give them equal say as everyone else on those matters, regardless of their ownership, and be able to talk over anything that is suggested in the forums by non-councils, equally with the exception that they obviously cannot be voted off of their own adminship unless the main owner who i assume is mephiles at this time decides to take a co-owner off which he would have sole decision on.

I seriously doubt any of the clan leaders would tolerate any abuse of power from anyone else and i trust that the server owners aren't going to push it. This way it gives us a way of discussing each clan's view as a whole on whatever the issue may be through a mature party... who can take the issue to their clan if need be.

The leader chosen can be selected amongst the clan who is choosing their representative.

P.S. If none of these leaders will be allowed to have admin save the owners, the admins will be strictly separate save the two exceptions.


Last edited by {GOR}Master~Tyrlan on Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
{GOR}Master~Tyrlan
Member
Member

Posts : 550
Stuff : 474
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2009-07-30
Age : 24
Location : Canada!

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Alex Ace on Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:59 pm

the council and admin should be two seperate branches that look over one another. and sinister could be the leader of the council with meph as leader of admins vice versa
avatar
Alex Ace
Member
Member

Posts : 680
Stuff : 2000000641
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2009-04-19
Age : 24
Location : ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by {GOR.666}Dagen on Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:39 pm

Well at least everyone is trying to work together on establishing a better server...However...It seems to be a bit confused. The idea of a council is to select a committee that decides what rules there are and who has the authority to enforce them. I see no problem in keeping these admin rights out of the equation. "If" someone abuses admin they may get away with it for a short bit but ultimately would lose it. You could even set it up the same way as banning someone from the server by taking it away for like a week or something. And this should apply to ANYONE who has admin. (Except Meph...since it's his server) Honestly I feel Meph should be the only council member that has admin as it would be his responsibility to exercise the decision of the majority vote of the council, but I don't know if it's a better idea for each clan to select their own or to have Meph (and only Meph, again since it's your server) request who he'd like to see on said council. Don't take it as disrespect Sinister as I know your a trusted adviser as should the rest of the council be. There's a time and place for everything and this would be the time and place to get the council thing rolling. Through PM's and posts or even meetings, would be the time and place to discuss admin rights. Other than a little re-wording I think the rules are already well stated and good. And despite the negativity, the council would work so long as decisions are followed through with when made. It's obvious that there is a need for more than a few admins (not to mention quality admins) but that would be taken care of in due time.
avatar
{GOR.666}Dagen
Member
Member

Posts : 65
Stuff : 73
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2009-11-21
Location : So Cal

View user profile http://www.myspace.com/dagengage

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:42 pm

This is beginning to sound like Checks and Balances, no group has more power than the other

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Huey Freeman on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:10 pm

Sort of like how the country runs...The council would be the legislative branch, the admins the judicial, with me and Sinister and President and Vice President AKA the executive, if you want to look at it that way I guess.

_____________________________________________
Appearances rarely share the whole truth.
Weak humans are irresponsible and sneaky. They'd rather put the blame on others and let them suffer.
"We're Americans! We don't quit just because we're wrong! We just keep doing the wrong thing until it turns out right!"

avatar
Huey Freeman
Server Owner

Posts : 996
Stuff : 1000001260
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2009-04-19
Age : 15
Location : Woodcrest, Maryland

View user profile http://abyssserver.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Sinister on Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:24 am

I really don't even care anymore.

Abyss is fine now. All we needed was (non-abusive) active admins.

_____________________________________________

avatar
Sinister
Member
Member

Posts : 569
Stuff : 634
Reputation : 24
Join date : 2009-06-22
Age : 26
Location : United States

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by {JoG}.:r@bb!t:. on Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:06 am

Sinister wrote:I really don't even care anymore.

Abyss is fine now. All we needed was (non-abusive) active admins.

Yeah, i agree.
avatar
{JoG}.:r@bb!t:.
Member
Member

Posts : 150
Stuff : 183
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : California

View user profile http://myspace.com/akatsuki2021

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Spider-Man on Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:18 am

Sinister is just afraid of being the next Joe Biden. lol

_____________________________________________

avatar
Spider-Man
Server admin
Server admin

Posts : 238
Stuff : 257
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2009-09-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by xXDenialXx on Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:29 pm

well I agree wit Sinister too. I mean i'd like to be in the council, but if I can't, the Abyss is fine right now. except for all the fuking douchey tking nubs..
avatar
xXDenialXx
Member
Member

Posts : 661
Stuff : 674
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2009-06-29
Location : umm...outside ur window...

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Spider-Man on Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:03 pm

tbh I've lost interest too. The game is so dead only about 50 people still play it regularly, and they all practically know each other, so there is no real point in a council at this point in time.

_____________________________________________

avatar
Spider-Man
Server admin
Server admin

Posts : 238
Stuff : 257
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2009-09-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by {GOR}Master~Tyrlan on Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:29 pm

That's fine with me. If you'll allow... I could contribute to the administration. I am aware of the boot/ban/warn system you have posted... and i know how that works.

Besides, I am constantly seeing idiots who are just ruining the server with stupid behavior... and i think i would enjoy my time there much much more if i could warn/eliminate (if need be) these... idiots... before they push my own and others limit of patience.

The only thing with that is i have exams around now so i should be on more a bit later... (next week or week and a half) to actively assist in controlling the "issue players". Until then it'll be occasional.
avatar
{GOR}Master~Tyrlan
Member
Member

Posts : 550
Stuff : 474
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2009-07-30
Age : 24
Location : Canada!

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Alex Ace on Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:23 pm

i like the idea of a council but i kind of see everyones point. the inactivity
avatar
Alex Ace
Member
Member

Posts : 680
Stuff : 2000000641
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2009-04-19
Age : 24
Location : ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by {GOR.666}Dagen on Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:15 am

Sinister wrote:I really don't even care anymore.

Abyss is fine now. All we needed was (non-abusive) active admins.
ROFL...Agreed. But that would also mean existing ones too
avatar
{GOR.666}Dagen
Member
Member

Posts : 65
Stuff : 73
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2009-11-21
Location : So Cal

View user profile http://www.myspace.com/dagengage

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Devil_Wing on Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:28 pm

How the hell am I abusive. I have always wondered how I get singled out personally for this shit. I do the same things Jman does, and that Sinister does yet I'm the one who they complain about. You never see anyone complaining about Jman, or Sinister about being abusive anymore..

Jog has abusive admins too, Gor does as well, but yet I'm the one singled out..

_____________________________________________
Got It Memorized?
Best of all time

Devil_Wing
Server admin
Server admin

Posts : 672
Stuff : 1000000698
Reputation : -27
Join date : 2009-04-27
Age : 26
Location : The world that never was, Ivalice

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Hero on Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:21 pm

they seem to hate you i guess. even spidey loves to single you out
avatar
Hero
Member
Member

Posts : 88
Stuff : 87
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2010-04-02
Age : 21
Location : JOG

View user profile http://www.Nationofjog.com

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by xXDenialXx on Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:10 pm

fuking haters
avatar
xXDenialXx
Member
Member

Posts : 661
Stuff : 674
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2009-06-29
Location : umm...outside ur window...

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: State of the Abyss

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum