Openly gay NBA player

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Fri May 03, 2013 1:43 am

Are you speaking psychologically? it seems you stress that people have a sinful nature. Freud would argue the are feeding the Id so to speak.

and mimmi, it has been proven that environment has little to no effect on sexual orientation. in fact, it seems that its mostly influenced biologically. according to my psych 150 prof., the study suggest that the chances of a child turning out to be gay correlate with how many older brothers they have. though seems wrong since sinister says his older bro is gay.

also I think we should stray from whether you guys think being gay is right or wrong. its your opinion. I suggest we focus on how Jason Collins coming out will affect the sports industry



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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Spider-Man on Fri May 03, 2013 2:05 am

Well this is productive.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Fri May 03, 2013 2:12 am

or is it reproductive? scratch
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Fearless on Fri May 03, 2013 3:35 am

I honestly don't care that Jason Collins is gay nor do I care if anyone else is gay. As long as it doesn't affect his performance on the court it shouldn't have been a noteworthy story but as Blaine stated it's the media, which is mostly liberal, that is trying to gain as much traction for the legalization of gay marriage as possible so of course this has been a headline story. You just have to use your filter to discard the garbage the media spits at you and what is actually relevant and newsworthy.

As far as scripture is concerned we all fall short so why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? Of course you could say homosexuality is far from being a speck but as it is in Christianity it is the concept and the teachings that truly matter at least in my interpretation.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Sinister on Fri May 03, 2013 12:04 pm

{vVv}Alex Ace wrote:Are you speaking psychologically? it seems you stress that people have a sinful nature. Freud would argue the are feeding the Id so to speak.

and mimmi, it has been proven that environment has little to no effect on sexual orientation. in fact, it seems that its mostly influenced biologically. according to my psych 150 prof., the study suggest that the chances of a child turning out to be gay correlate with how many older brothers they have. though seems wrong since sinister says his older bro is gay.

also I think we should stray from whether you guys think being gay is right or wrong. its your opinion. I suggest we focus on how Jason Collins coming out will affect the sports industry

I myself am not stressing that people have a sinful nature. I'm merely repeating what is found in Scripture. The Bible tells us that "For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

In regard to what you said to Mimmi, I think you have been given misinformation or are simply wrong. I can testify (not that my opinion has much weight) to the fact that yes, what happens and therefore happened to you does play a large part in shaping who you are as a person, especially in the younger years. No offense, but you more or less negate your own point in first saying, "it has been proven that environment has little to no effect on sexual orientation" and then going on to say, "the chances of a child turning out to be gay correlate with how many older brothers they have". I hope you see the apparent contradiction in these two statements.

Which brings me to my next point...

In my opinion, yes, homosexuality is a wrong, but beyond that, it is a sin, which is clearly spoken in the Bible. Alex, as a believer, though you are Catholic, one would think you would adhere to the authority of Scripture and not the cultural norms of the world today, which by the way are always changing. How can you trust a society's views that are always changing? How can you trust yourself in the light of what Scripture says about man? If right and wrong is based merely on the opinion of the person, then you do realize that with such logic we can justify anything, right?

We must obtain morality and truth from an absolute, perfect, external source.
That's not brainwash; that's just basic reasoning.
The only one who fits the bill, is God.


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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Blaine on Fri May 03, 2013 4:33 pm

Why is gay marriage even a governmental issue? What happened to separation of church and state? It doesn't matter how much the bible rambles about homosexuality being a sin, no law should be made based on a religious idea. Just because most of the monotheistic scriptures declare homosexuality a sin doesn't mean people get to deprive gays of rights and privileges that ordinary citizens get to enjoy.

You can follow the bible, the qur'an or any other scripture you want and believe that homosexuality is a choice, a sin, immoral, disgraceful to humanity, a consequence of some bullshit pulled out of your ass... fine. But you don't get to legislate it... because of separation of church and state.

Why can't everyone just leave each other alone? Where is the love mayne?!

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Sinister on Fri May 03, 2013 5:17 pm

Blaine wrote:Why can't everyone just leave each other alone? Where is the love mayne?!

Indifference, unlike hate, is the very opposite of love.

From what I understand, a "civil union" is just a culturally convenient way for gay people to get married. Essentially, marriage and civil union stress different parts of the same thing.

I agree with you that everyone should be treated equally. Unfortunately, that's not how the world works, even though we make many attempts at such an ideal. The reality is, marriage is not a mere benefit or a right; it is a very holy, God-given privilege which is meant to honor God and be a reflection of and pointer to Christ (the bridegroom) and the church (the bride).

You can take a look at history and see past empires that fell and their descent starts when morality declines and gender roles are distorted and everything becomes a perversion of its original intent. Gay marriage is not good for the family element or children either and gay couples are exponentially more prone to doing/being victims of domestic and sexual abuse. There are tons and tons of statistics which show that homosexual relationships are generally quite unhealthy for all involved.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by {JOG}Ryuuzaki on Fri May 03, 2013 9:02 pm

Sinister wrote:
{vVv}Alex Ace wrote:being gay isn't a sin. the catholic church wants us to believe that, so they claim that being gay is a choice and a lifestyle,. ask any gay person and they'll tell you that they were born that way to be attracted to the same sex. don't be brainwashed by the church.

1 Timothy 1:10 - The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

Romans 1:26-28 - For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

Romans 1:32 - Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

It is most definitely a sin, Alex. I think you are exaggerating in saying that any gay person will say they are born that way, though, yes, I'm sure there are some who do. However, that doesn't make it true. You can see from Romans 1:26 above that it says "God gave them up to dishonorable passions." and that they exchanged "natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for another". A basic understanding of human anatomy shows us that a man goes with a woman and a woman with a man; not man with man and woman with woman. The good news is that the grace and mercy of God is given to us in Jesus Christ and that "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13

For the record, I do not follow the pope or the catholic church or their doctrine.


The Truth, It Have Been Spoken.
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Sat May 04, 2013 12:29 am

Sinister wrote:
{vVv}Alex Ace wrote:Are you speaking psychologically? it seems you stress that people have a sinful nature. Freud would argue the are feeding the Id so to speak.

and mimmi, it has been proven that environment has little to no effect on sexual orientation. in fact, it seems that its mostly influenced biologically. according to my psych 150 prof., the study suggest that the chances of a child turning out to be gay correlate with how many older brothers they have. though seems wrong since sinister says his older bro is gay.

also I think we should stray from whether you guys think being gay is right or wrong. its your opinion. I suggest we focus on how Jason Collins coming out will affect the sports industry

I myself am not stressing that people have a sinful nature. I'm merely repeating what is found in Scripture. The Bible tells us that "For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

In regard to what you said to Mimmi, I think you have been given misinformation or are simply wrong. I can testify (not that my opinion has much weight) to the fact that yes, what happens and therefore happened to you does play a large part in shaping who you are as a person, especially in the younger years. No offense, but you more or less negate your own point in first saying, "it has been proven that environment has little to no effect on sexual orientation" and then going on to say, "the chances of a child turning out to be gay correlate with how many older brothers they have". I hope you see the apparent contradiction in these two statements.

Which brings me to my next point...

In my opinion, yes, homosexuality is a wrong, but beyond that, it is a sin, which is clearly spoken in the Bible. Alex, as a believer, though you are Catholic, one would think you would adhere to the authority of Scripture and not the cultural norms of the world today, which by the way are always changing. How can you trust a society's views that are always changing? How can you trust yourself in the light of what Scripture says about man? If right and wrong is based merely on the opinion of the person, then you do realize that with such logic we can justify anything, right?

We must obtain morality and truth from an absolute, perfect, external source.
That's not brainwash; that's just basic reasoning.
The only one who fits the bill, is God.



I wasn't specific enough. According to this experiment I reviewed, the theory stated that the uterus treats a baby boy as a foreign substance so to speak due to the excess of testosterone. As the mother has more sons the mothers body gets better at resisting this testosterone excess, which makes the child more feminine, then becoming gay. But as far as your life growing up, THAT doesn't have much affect on orientation. However this is only a correlational study so its not per se proving cause and effect, only shows their is a positive relationship. the variables being number of older brothers and whether or not you're gay.

you could be right however that this theory is just completely wrong. After all, many theories have been proven wrong in the past.

And I also agree with you guys on how the media is kinda over playing this. Tbh Jason Collins is not even a good center. hes been in the league 10+ years, been on 6 different teams, and I didn't even know who he was until I read the sports illustrated article on him, and the endless espn radio talk shows hes been talked about. I however praise his braveryfor being open with his true self despite the backlash he will get.
I also stand by what my opinions were regarding scripture, I respect it but logic and reasoning prevails regarding the obvious flaws that can be found
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Blaine on Sat May 04, 2013 2:54 am

Sinister wrote:I agree with you that everyone should be treated equally. Unfortunately, that's not how the world works, even though we make many attempts at such an ideal. The reality is, marriage is not a mere benefit or a right; it is a very holy, God-given privilege which is meant to honor God and be a reflection of and pointer to Christ (the bridegroom) and the church (the bride).
I would share my views but I dont think you'd give a flying fuck about it seeing that YOUR religion has so much more value that you just get to define reality while completely ignoring the "realities" and values of the rest of the world. And you're perfectly okay causing unhappiness among millions of Americans because YOUR religion declares something wrong. Because YOUR god told you it's right.

You must feel extremely privileged to have been born in a Christian family cuz if you were born in the Middle East, India, China, Africa, or even America before the colonial period, I'm pretty sure you would've been screwed.

Sinister wrote:You can take a look at history and see past empires that fell and their descent starts when morality declines and gender roles are distorted and everything becomes a perversion of its original intent. Gay marriage is not good for the family element or children either and gay couples are exponentially more prone to doing/being victims of domestic and sexual abuse. There are tons and tons of statistics which show that homosexual relationships are generally quite unhealthy for all involved.
Give me the statistics.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Sat May 04, 2013 5:06 am

Woah cool down Blaine, getting a little heated now. Sinister is just repeating what he has been taught over the course of his Christian life. Where as you and I are taking a more humanistic approach.
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Sat May 04, 2013 5:11 am


Let's agree to respect each other's views, no matter how wrong yours might be.
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Sinister on Sat May 04, 2013 11:13 am

Blaine wrote:I would share my views but I dont think you'd give a flying fuck about it seeing that YOUR religion has so much more value that you just get to define reality while completely ignoring the "realities" and values of the rest of the world. And you're perfectly okay causing unhappiness among millions of Americans because YOUR religion declares something wrong. Because YOUR god told you it's right.

You must feel extremely privileged to have been born in a Christian family cuz if you were born in the Middle East, India, China, Africa, or even America before the colonial period, I'm pretty sure you would've been screwed.

Give me the statistics.

I don't define reality; God does. I look at scripture, then look at myself and others and the world, and what I read is confirmed. I'm not sure what unhappiness I'm causing (you're being rather vague), but to be blunt, I'm not concerned with anyone's happiness or that of my own. To be put on this earth and to seek only to be happy is, to me, a very shallow, usually self-serving, pursuit. I'd rather avoid offending people, but in reading the bible, I should not be surprised that I do. I'm okay with people lashing out against me and hating what I say and perhaps even hating me; again, in reading scripture, I should not be surprised at this. I told you before: to be indifferent is not to love. If I stay quiet and just keep everything to myself, regardless of whether or not you like or want to hear what I have to say, am I truly exhibiting love? or am I much more remaining loveless?

I wasn't necessarily born in a Christian family. We went to church from time to time and it was mostly my mom trying to make us (my dad almost never went). When I got old enough, I stopped going completely unless it was some sort of family get-together. Even then, I thought it was incredibly boring -- I was very immature. Then, it came to the point where we never went, and let me be clear; you're not a Christian because you go to church. As I grew older, I was against the thought of God altogether, and all throughout the early-mid teen years, I lived as if He was nonexistent.

My family was falling apart, and it almost always had been, but I had just now been able to take notice. My older brother decided he was homosexual, much to the ignorant encouragement of my grandma and aunt and even after having girlfriends. My mom says when he was younger he gave testimony to the fact that my dad sexually abused him. It was at this time I was exposed to pornography and masturbation. My brother and I could not bear to live with our parents who often would fight verbally which would sometimes escalate into becoming physical. At one point it was so bad, my brother went to the neighbor's, who was a cop, and my mom was thrown in jail. So, over the years we jumped back and forth from living with my grandparents to my aunt to living with my parents again till we eventually lived with my dad in my aunt's house with my brother's live-in boyfriend.

Long story short, no I have not had a typical, easy-going, well-privileged, Christian family or life. Quite the contrary, my family was very screwed up, and still is in many ways. Up until the spring-summer of 2011, to me, Christianity was just a crutch for people, a way for them to find some comfort and solace and meaning in life, just a nice idea... but as you said, not a reality... not a part of my reality. I thought people were scared of dying, so believing in God and thinking you were going to heaven was a great way to get afterlife insurance lol. To me, God was an idea which you attributed good to, and Satan was the scapegoat for which you assigned all evil; it was convenient -- but I didn't believe it. I thought myself above such silly reasoning. Then, after having moved up to Pennsylvania and through the encouragement of my aunt and uncle and others, I thought, "Well, what can it hurt to investigate this further? If it really is just a big joke, then I will come to see that even more." and so, I acted on that thought.

I opened my mind up to the possibility. One thing led to another and, I soon opened my heart as well to Christ on the last Monday of June, 2011 at about 2am. Looking back, I now see the sovereign hand of God on my life and that He was the One who was working to bring me to Himself and still does. So, you see, I'm rather young in being a Christian. And to be perfectly honest with you, I'm a very weak person. I still wrestle and struggle with things such as lust and laziness and pornography and masturbation and fear and arrogance and blatant disobedience and lack of love and the list goes on. I fail at it everyday -- and that's the point!

We can't be good enough for God, no one can! We are dead in our sins and trespasses. We need grace. We need mercy. We need forgiveness. And so, He sent His Son, to die upon the cross and pay the punishment for our sins and take upon himself the outpouring of the wrath of God against us, so that whoever believes on Christ would have everlasting life; that we might be forgiven of past, present, and future sins and reconciled by and through Christ unto God; that He would take up our sin and iniquity in Himself and impute His righteousness to us; that we would be saved and spared and so work to magnify Him; that we would know, love, obey, and enjoy Him. Through Jesus, we have grace and mercy and forgiveness -- precious gifts given to us by God, not to be used as license to sin, but to be savored and enjoyed and basked in and empowered by and thankful for and used to glorify God, all through the greatest gift, who is Christ.

I have to get ready for work now. I think that is a perfect place to end the post anyway. I will try to find some statistics for you when I return, although I believe I heard them via radio and television.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Swerty on Sat May 04, 2013 3:27 pm

Bottom line is we have to respect each other's differences. If a homosexual couple want to get married, who are we to stop them? The love they have for each other is the same as any other couple. You shouldn't be able to tell one group of people they can be able to get married and live a happy life together, then turn around and tell a homosexual couple, they have no right to get married. Frankly it's inhuman to think you have a right to tell them what to do. I know the Bible says it is a "sin", but it's their "sin" to make. Not everyone is a christian in this world, so I don't see why everyone would have to follow this christian belief. They can hate gay marriage all they want, but that's just their opinion. When you say that marriage should be between a man and a woman, because that's how it's been since the dawn of time, all i have to say is look around you. The world is constantly changing, progressing as we evolve and learn from our mistakes. This is just another mistake that we are going to correct. There is a reason we don't still have slaves, or live under one all powerful ruler, because we adapted and changed our society to fit the needs of the people. Just because we have done it in the past, doesn't mean we have to continue it in the future. The government shouldn't have EVERYONE abide by this christian oriented law. The government is starting to realize this, which is why they are getting closer to allowing gay marriage.

That's all i have to say on this subject.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Sat May 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Well said, what's holding society back is homophobes and uptight Christians. Which one do you fall under?
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Fearless on Sat May 04, 2013 4:46 pm

I think Blaine's comment pertained more to the fact that you grew up in America which in general is Pro-Christian, you can speculate on the worthiness of these Christians, and how they don't stack up but speaking for myself I would avoid doing that. No one here hates you for your religion and because this is America you are pretty much preaching to the quire haha.

However, if you would have grown up in different time in a different part of the world it is very likely you would have chosen another faith to follow, again speculation but I feel like that is a safe " inference" .



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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Blaine on Sat May 04, 2013 8:52 pm

I enjoyed reading your life story, but I was clearly speaking in some foreign language (at least from your perspective). I'll try to go thro it point by point, hopefully being a little bit more clear by keeping everything as short as possible. But what I was saying is more along the lines of what Fearless said.

I don't define reality; God does.
Your god isn't the only god in question.

I look at scripture, then look at myself and others and the world, and what I read is confirmed.
Everyone from other religions who take their religion seriously have equal confirmation.

I'm not sure what unhappiness I'm causing
You're an adult citizen with the power to vote. You're causing unhappiness among the gay crowd by voting to deprive them the privilege of marriage.

but to be blunt, I'm not concerned with anyone's happiness or that of my own.
Okay, what ARE you concerned about? Going around making sure everyone follows YOUR set of scripture?

I lived as if He was nonexistent.
And that's when you had the most rational capabilities. That's when we used to admire everything about you, while now all that's left to admire is your skill and your legend in a video game.

My older brother decided he was homosexual
There's no scientific evidence that you can DECIDE to be homosexual. All scientific data points to a genetic cause indicating that it's biological (hence there are gay animals, such as gay ducks).

much to the ignorant encouragement of my grandma and aunt and even after having girlfriends.
There's no point in encouraging him. He isn't to blame for having a neural network and hormones that attracts him to other men.

My brother and I could not bear to live with our parents who often would fight verbally which would sometimes escalate into becoming physical. At one point it was so bad, my brother went to the neighbor's, who was a cop, and my mom was thrown in jail. So, over the years we jumped back and forth from living with my grandparents to my aunt to living with my parents again till we eventually lived with my dad in my aunt's house with my brother's live-in boyfriend.
I'm sorry you had a shitty family.

Long story short, no I have not had a typical, easy-going, well-privileged, Christian family or life.
Like fearless said, that's not the privilege I was referring to. I was referring to your exposure to what you believe is the right religion. There are 7.08 billion people on Earth (estimated by USCB). Roughly 33% of them (2.34 billion) are Christians. So if, out of the 4200 estimated number of religions in the world, yours just happens to be right, then, according to Christianity, 77% of the world are doomed to feel the fire of hell forever for their "ignorance," despite what culture they were exposed to, what they were taught in their churches/temples, what set of scripture they read, or what kind of abuse they went through. Note that the percentage gets smaller if you believe in a certain division (Roman Catholic 17%, Protestant 5% etc).

I opened my mind up to the possibility.
You opened your mind to ONE possibility.

And to be perfectly honest with you, I'm a very weak person. I still wrestle and struggle with things such as lust and laziness and pornography and masturbation and fear and arrogance and blatant disobedience and lack of love
Depends on how you define weak. If you define it as not being able to resist the urges of "lust and laziness and pornography and masturbation and fear and arrogance and blatant disobedience and lack of love" then, sure. You're weak. But if you don't define them as weak but rather as normal, human, biological urges caused by neural activity in your brain, then you're not weak. Just human.

I fail at it everyday -- and that's the point!

We can't be good enough for God, no one can! We are dead in our sins and trespasses. We need grace. We need mercy. We need forgiveness.
That's all assuming your religion is right, which, of course, there's no evidence for.

Your god defines sins, creates you with a brain so you get strong urges to commit them, then demands forgiveness for going along with your urges. He sounds kinda like a little kid playing Sims.

And so, He sent His Son, to die upon the cross and pay the punishment for our sins and take upon himself the outpouring of the wrath of God against us
Must be a pretty powerful god to have to send his son to do the job that he can supposedly do with a snap. Perhaps he was busy masturbating?

so that whoever believes on Christ would have everlasting life
Regardless of how undeserving they should be of such a reward.


To sum it up, here is your mistake: You ignored the possibilities of other gods being true, thus narrowing your view and you have lost your sense of judgement and fairness toward other people because your faith teaches you not to care about their happiness.

Random: The Dalai Lamas of Tibetan Buddhism set establishing peace and helping and being kind to others as their most important goal, rather then telling others what to believe. There's no reason to not like him. He's only doing good. He doesn't believe in Christ. He's going to hell. But I guess a true Christian like yourself has no reason to care about his values since he (along with the rest of us) values happiness and you don't.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by YounesTheDrunk on Sat May 04, 2013 9:00 pm

Okay this is getting out of hand. People are not respecting each other and the topic isnt even being talked about anymore. So this is now locked.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Blaine on Sat May 04, 2013 9:09 pm

YounesTheDrunk wrote:Okay this is getting out of hand. People are not respecting each other and the topic isnt even being talked about anymore. So this is now locked.
No one is being offensive. No one is being disrespectful. We're respectfully debating. Nothing has gotten out of hand. We are all old enough to not take anything personally.

Would you rather have a discussion like this or joke all day long about being gay on bed? Which one's more interesting? Idk why you're silencing us.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Alex Ace on Sat May 04, 2013 9:16 pm

blaine you are coming off as offensive
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Sinister on Sat May 04, 2013 9:32 pm

It's not a problem.

Though I would not call Blaine's latest post respectful, I do enjoy debate. At the same time, I'm not here to win an argument.

I will respond later.

You can leave it unlocked.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Blaine on Sun May 05, 2013 12:50 pm

Well I apologize. No offense was intended.

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Let's agree to respect each other's views, no matter how wrong yours might be.
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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by YounesTheDrunk on Sun May 05, 2013 2:16 pm

I took offense to the post you made and it wasnt directed at me. So i suggest the next posts dont turn out like the above one you made or this will get locked again and you wont be unlocking it.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

Post by Guest on Sun May 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Blaine wrote:
My older brother decided he was homosexual
There's no scientific evidence that you can DECIDE to be homosexual. All scientific data points to a genetic cause indicating that it's biological (hence there are gay animals, such as gay ducks).

Long story short, no I have not had a typical, easy-going, well-privileged, Christian family or life.
So if, out of the 4200 estimated number of religions in the world, yours just happens to be right, then, according to Christianity, 77% of the world are doomed to feel the fire of hell forever for their "ignorance," despite what culture they were exposed to, what they were taught in their churches/temples, what set of scripture they read, or what kind of abuse they went through.

1. You cannot be born gay. The body doesn't work like that. Genetic switches are the biological reference you probably are speaking of, and, even then these switches are caused by environmental and other outside factors (peer pressure, abusive family, etc). So one is not born to be "gay", it is rather learned from the corrupt world that has poisoned minds of the innocent.

2. God doesn't punish the people who don't know the truth, only the ones that deny it and refuse to listen.

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Re: Openly gay NBA player

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